Comments on: The Mozilla/WebKit Arms Race http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/ A narrative on the future of web browsers and web browsing Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:31:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: George http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1034 George Sun, 18 May 2008 15:23:37 +0000 http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/#comment-1034 To get an idea which browser engine is best just do the following: 1.start Mozilla and WebKit 2.copy the test url (http://people.opera.com/~pettern/performance-1.html) 3. click Go in Mozilla first and then(!) in WebKit What you gonna see is increasing number of bouncing balls (with counter) as well as frames per second display rate in each browser. The JavaScript functionality used in the test is rather diverse: from animations with new doc elements and Splines to Math and colors. And results I got with WebKit build 33475 and started like ./GtkLauncher are very impressive: even though it started the test 1 or 2 seconds after competitor it quickly reached 105 balls (with 29 fps) while Mozilla (Gecko 1.8.1.10) was still trying to cope with 25 balls (31 fps). Second run with same WebKit (by the way build without a glitch) started 2 seconds after Mozilla 2.0.0.14 (Gecko 1.8.1.14) produced even more amazing results: when WebKit reached 100 balls (running 46 fps) Mozilla was stuck with miserable 30 balls and it was slowing to 11 fps. Quite a difference! Seems like there's no serious competitor left for WebKit :-) May be Opera can come up with something? Or sorry, they are in love with money too much and do not need to be mentioned here )) P.S. SunSpider suit of tests (http://webkit.org/perf/sunspider-0.9/sunspider.html) also tells that WebKit engine is 2-3 times faster than Mozilla. To get an idea which browser engine is best just do the following:

1.start Mozilla and WebKit
2.copy the test url (http://people.opera.com/~pettern/performance-1.html)
3. click Go in Mozilla first and then(!) in WebKit

What you gonna see is increasing number of bouncing balls (with counter)
as well as frames per second display rate in each browser.
The JavaScript functionality used in the test is rather diverse:
from animations with new doc elements and Splines to Math and colors.

And results I got with WebKit build 33475 and started like ./GtkLauncher
are very impressive: even though it started the test 1 or 2 seconds
after competitor it quickly reached 105 balls (with 29 fps)
while Mozilla (Gecko 1.8.1.10) was still trying to cope with 25 balls (31 fps).

Second run with same WebKit (by the way build without a glitch)
started 2 seconds after Mozilla 2.0.0.14 (Gecko 1.8.1.14) produced
even more amazing results:
when WebKit reached 100 balls (running 46 fps)
Mozilla was stuck with miserable 30 balls and it was slowing to 11 fps.

Quite a difference!

Seems like there’s no serious competitor left for WebKit :-)

May be Opera can come up with something?
Or sorry, they are in love with money too much
and do not need to be mentioned here ))

P.S. SunSpider suit of tests (http://webkit.org/perf/sunspider-0.9/sunspider.html)
also tells that WebKit engine is 2-3 times faster than Mozilla.

]]> By: Colin Scroggins http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/comment-page-1/#comment-427 Colin Scroggins Sun, 23 Mar 2008 15:45:56 +0000 http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/#comment-427 Just watching the Acid 3 progress and speed of the Webkit nightlies is impressive! Webkit is sitting in the mid-90s, in terms of compliance, and moving swiftly. How long has it taken Mozilla just to get Acid 2 compliance? I do not hold out hope that Acid 3 compliance will be present for 6 months or more. I think it is fair for Apple to compare only against released browsers. Note that they did not include IE8 either. When Mozilla and MS actually release their browsers, currently in development, then that is the sign they consider them complete. Until then we would just hear arguments that they are not code complete, debugged, or optimized. Released products are the best mark for measure. Just watching the Acid 3 progress and speed of the Webkit nightlies is impressive! Webkit is sitting in the mid-90s, in terms of compliance, and moving swiftly. How long has it taken Mozilla just to get Acid 2 compliance? I do not hold out hope that Acid 3 compliance will be present for 6 months or more.

I think it is fair for Apple to compare only against released browsers. Note that they did not include IE8 either. When Mozilla and MS actually release their browsers, currently in development, then that is the sign they consider them complete. Until then we would just hear arguments that they are not code complete, debugged, or optimized. Released products are the best mark for measure.

]]> By: Mike Shaver http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/comment-page-1/#comment-426 Mike Shaver Sat, 22 Mar 2008 05:38:12 +0000 http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/#comment-426 (I thought this was in my previous comment, but I guess not.) Comparing nightlies is fun and easy, but people shouldn't expect Mozilla to be taking major optimizations right now. We're in stabilization mode for FF3, and we aren't going to be jamming things into a release that would risk site breakage or stability -- other groups, obviously, can choose other paths, depending on how they prioritize benchmark performance vs. other things. There are lots of excellent optimizations to come in Mozilla's JS (some with patches waiting for after FF3 ships), and we haven't even started dipping into the Tamarin-Tracing bag of tricks, or doing any interesting compile-time bytecode optimizations. But if you're going to compare nightlies, you might find it especially interesting to compare builds on mobile devices, like the n810.... I'm afraid someone forgot to tell those machines that Mozilla's supposed to be the slow one. :) (I thought this was in my previous comment, but I guess not.)

Comparing nightlies is fun and easy, but people shouldn’t expect Mozilla to be taking major optimizations right now. We’re in stabilization mode for FF3, and we aren’t going to be jamming things into a release that would risk site breakage or stability — other groups, obviously, can choose other paths, depending on how they prioritize benchmark performance vs. other things. There are lots of excellent optimizations to come in Mozilla’s JS (some with patches waiting for after FF3 ships), and we haven’t even started dipping into the Tamarin-Tracing bag of tricks, or doing any interesting compile-time bytecode optimizations.

But if you’re going to compare nightlies, you might find it especially interesting to compare builds on mobile devices, like the n810…. I’m afraid someone forgot to tell those machines that Mozilla’s supposed to be the slow one. :)

]]> By: Matt http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/comment-page-1/#comment-412 Matt Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:25:13 +0000 http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/#comment-412 Standards support for stuff like SVG and CSS is certainly benefitting from this arms race as well, but I agree with Vincent that performance is more of a banner issue that is likely to mean something to "normal" users. Standards support for stuff like SVG and CSS is certainly benefitting from this arms race as well, but I agree with Vincent that performance is more of a banner issue that is likely to mean something to “normal” users.

]]> By: Chris Hubick http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/comment-page-1/#comment-411 Chris Hubick Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:00:20 +0000 http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/#comment-411 Most exciting to me is that Safari supports referencing SVG images from CSS! The Firefox bug has 80 votes: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=231179 Most exciting to me is that Safari supports referencing SVG images from CSS!

The Firefox bug has 80 votes:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=231179

]]> By: Vincent http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/comment-page-1/#comment-410 Vincent Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:14:44 +0000 http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/#comment-410 The best thing IMHO is that speed is another compelling argument for "normal" users to switch. Firefox has gained a lot of market share among normal users because it was safer than IE, now it also has the speed advantage :) The best thing IMHO is that speed is another compelling argument for “normal” users to switch. Firefox has gained a lot of market share among normal users because it was safer than IE, now it also has the speed advantage :)

]]> By: Matt http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/comment-page-1/#comment-408 Matt Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:41:29 +0000 http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/#comment-408 Well there you go, a proper arms race indeed! Someone should set up a website that pulls down the respective nightlies and charts the progress on a day-to-day basis. Hmmm... Well there you go, a proper arms race indeed! Someone should set up a website that pulls down the respective nightlies and charts the progress on a day-to-day basis. Hmmm…

]]> By: shaver http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/comment-page-1/#comment-407 shaver Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:36:47 +0000 http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/#comment-407 Indeed, it's been good times. :) Indeed, it’s been good times. :)

]]> By: Maciej Stachowiak http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/comment-page-1/#comment-406 Maciej Stachowiak Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:32:23 +0000 http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/#comment-406 It's perhaps most instructive to compare Firefox nightlies to WebKit nightlies. I believe the lead has switched quite a few times in the past few days. :-) It’s perhaps most instructive to compare Firefox nightlies to WebKit nightlies. I believe the lead has switched quite a few times in the past few days. :-)

]]> By: shaver http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/comment-page-1/#comment-405 shaver Thu, 20 Mar 2008 19:11:27 +0000 http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/20/the-mozillawebkit-arms-race/#comment-405 You can try Safari 3.1 vs. a Firefox beta or nightly yourself, on WebKit's own SunSpider test collection at http://webkit.org/perf/sunspider-0.9/sunspider.html to see how the JS performance compares. I think you'll find the results interesting. Apple's numbers are on a beta version of Safari (?) and rely on iBench 5.0 (in case you have IIS and the Helix Streaming Server around to test with), so you'll have a hard time reproducing them yourself. You can try Safari 3.1 vs. a Firefox beta or nightly yourself, on WebKit’s own SunSpider test collection at http://webkit.org/perf/sunspider-0.9/sunspider.html to see how the JS performance compares. I think you’ll find the results interesting.

Apple’s numbers are on a beta version of Safari (?) and rely on iBench 5.0 (in case you have IIS and the Helix Streaming Server around to test with), so you’ll have a hard time reproducing them yourself.

]]>