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	<title>Comments on: Adobe&#8217;s Quest for Web Domination</title>
	<atom:link href="http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/</link>
	<description>A narrative on the future of web browsers and web browsing</description>
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		<title>By: Bombablog &#187; Archiv &#187; Televize umírá</title>
		<link>http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/comment-page-1/#comment-403</link>
		<dc:creator>Bombablog &#187; Archiv &#187; Televize umírá</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/#comment-403</guid>
		<description>[...] kvalitu hodlá postupně zlepšovat. Zajímavě na svém blogu spekuluje Matthew Gertner o možné implementace P2P technologie do Flashe. To by mohlo přechod na vyšší kvalitu urychlit a dokonce umožnit přímo na webu, bez [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] kvalitu hodlá postupně zlepšovat. Zajímavě na svém blogu spekuluje Matthew Gertner o možné implementace P2P technologie do Flashe. To by mohlo přechod na vyšší kvalitu urychlit a dokonce umožnit přímo na webu, bez [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Joerg</title>
		<link>http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/comment-page-1/#comment-401</link>
		<dc:creator>Joerg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 22:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/#comment-401</guid>
		<description>@FFD, I could not agree more with you. I don&#039;t like the proliferation of &quot;protection&quot; methods. There is a larger cultural effect that is well researched by Lawrence Lessig. I&#039;m struggling with the question what stance a technology provider like Adobe should take in that matter. Is there a moral obligation to withhold technology that even gives the choice of encryption? Is that comparable to the question of &quot;should we not engage in DNA research because of the negative consequences on the society&quot;? Should we chastise gun makers because of that reason? What about knife makers? Where does it stop?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@FFD, I could not agree more with you. I don&#8217;t like the proliferation of &#8220;protection&#8221; methods. There is a larger cultural effect that is well researched by Lawrence Lessig. I&#8217;m struggling with the question what stance a technology provider like Adobe should take in that matter. Is there a moral obligation to withhold technology that even gives the choice of encryption? Is that comparable to the question of &#8220;should we not engage in DNA research because of the negative consequences on the society&#8221;? Should we chastise gun makers because of that reason? What about knife makers? Where does it stop?</p>
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		<title>By: FFD</title>
		<link>http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/comment-page-1/#comment-400</link>
		<dc:creator>FFD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 08:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/#comment-400</guid>
		<description>@Joerg I agree with your defence of Adobe. I did not intend to critize Adobe for what they do now. Maybe I&#039;d do the same in their position. 

I&#039;m simply taking the stance of the consumer. I don&#039;t think it&#039;s in their interest, as pointed out in my response. When I was a kid, I taped music from the radio as all my fellows did. Now that I&#039;m adult, I&#039;m paying for it. Although I paid for it, I cannot move it between the devices I own. The people that did not pay for it are probably laughing at me. The DVDs I buy today do not play on my DVD player that I bought two years ago, because of copy protection. For non-technical people, all this non-interoperability is a big hurdle to actually adopt digital media. That&#039;s why I think copy protection leads nowhere. And what doesn&#039;t help the consumers, won&#039;t help the producers in the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Joerg I agree with your defence of Adobe. I did not intend to critize Adobe for what they do now. Maybe I&#8217;d do the same in their position. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m simply taking the stance of the consumer. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s in their interest, as pointed out in my response. When I was a kid, I taped music from the radio as all my fellows did. Now that I&#8217;m adult, I&#8217;m paying for it. Although I paid for it, I cannot move it between the devices I own. The people that did not pay for it are probably laughing at me. The DVDs I buy today do not play on my DVD player that I bought two years ago, because of copy protection. For non-technical people, all this non-interoperability is a big hurdle to actually adopt digital media. That&#8217;s why I think copy protection leads nowhere. And what doesn&#8217;t help the consumers, won&#8217;t help the producers in the end.</p>
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		<title>By: Joerg</title>
		<link>http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/comment-page-1/#comment-399</link>
		<dc:creator>Joerg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 08:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/#comment-399</guid>
		<description>Here is the EFF link I was alking about
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2005/07/protected-media-path-component-revocation-windows-driver-lockdown</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is the EFF link I was alking about<br />
<a href="http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2005/07/protected-media-path-component-revocation-windows-driver-lockdown" rel="nofollow">http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2005/07/protected-media-path-component-revocation-windows-driver-lockdown</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joerg</title>
		<link>http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/comment-page-1/#comment-398</link>
		<dc:creator>Joerg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 08:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/#comment-398</guid>
		<description>@Danny,
what I meant with my statement is that there is no _management_ in the sense of iTunes or Windows Media DRM on top of the stream encryption mechanism. For example FairPlay manages on how many iPods (5) you can play the content. 
I can see why this is a difficult discussion, but I draw a (albeit technical) line between the two terms. You are right when you think that without encryption there is no rights management since it typically sits on top of the other.
As Matt hinted, secure peer-to-peer video conferencing is another application that requires some form of stream encryption.

@FFD, there is an arms race going on about siphoning the bits that come from your beloved or hated broadcaster onto your monitor. That arms race now takes the matter to an extreme and I agree that it cannot be won by the currently existing broadcasting and monetization schemes. The EFF post had some comments about monitor manufacturers that want to comply to the Windows  DRM/encryption must decrypt the pixels/frames in hardware so that there is not really a place in the image pipeline where you can drain the stream. Given these (extreme) efforts I don&#039;t think that anyone at Adobe thinks that the stream encryption with a standard cipher will change the game in any way, it will give content producers (smaller, but mostly the bigger ones) another option.
There, of course, is an advantage for Adobe. If you want to encrypt your stream you need to shell out a thousand bucks for an Adobe FMS server. If you don&#039;t want to pay that money you have to keep serving that FLV file from your free HTTP server, or serve to content to an open source H.264 player from your open source RTSP server.

Do you think that Adobe should not allow stream encryption and take the side of people that advocate as little protection as possible for content rights? Given the dominance in web video do you think Adobe has some form of &quot;moral&quot; obligation? And why do you think that obligation  exists? I would be interested in your thoughts/speculations on how an eco-system that is free of content rights (or protection of those rights) will play out better in the long run over an eco-system where people pay a good chunk of money to create premium content and then want to monetize the content, either with advertising or by selling the content or subscriptions. And can both eco-systems exist side by side?
Where does the money flow? Is it only tools? Ads? Subscriptions? Pay-per-view? Purchase of the video? What keeps the eco-system humming and pays the electricity bills of the server farms?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Danny,<br />
what I meant with my statement is that there is no _management_ in the sense of iTunes or Windows Media DRM on top of the stream encryption mechanism. For example FairPlay manages on how many iPods (5) you can play the content.<br />
I can see why this is a difficult discussion, but I draw a (albeit technical) line between the two terms. You are right when you think that without encryption there is no rights management since it typically sits on top of the other.<br />
As Matt hinted, secure peer-to-peer video conferencing is another application that requires some form of stream encryption.</p>
<p>@FFD, there is an arms race going on about siphoning the bits that come from your beloved or hated broadcaster onto your monitor. That arms race now takes the matter to an extreme and I agree that it cannot be won by the currently existing broadcasting and monetization schemes. The EFF post had some comments about monitor manufacturers that want to comply to the Windows  DRM/encryption must decrypt the pixels/frames in hardware so that there is not really a place in the image pipeline where you can drain the stream. Given these (extreme) efforts I don&#8217;t think that anyone at Adobe thinks that the stream encryption with a standard cipher will change the game in any way, it will give content producers (smaller, but mostly the bigger ones) another option.<br />
There, of course, is an advantage for Adobe. If you want to encrypt your stream you need to shell out a thousand bucks for an Adobe FMS server. If you don&#8217;t want to pay that money you have to keep serving that FLV file from your free HTTP server, or serve to content to an open source H.264 player from your open source RTSP server.</p>
<p>Do you think that Adobe should not allow stream encryption and take the side of people that advocate as little protection as possible for content rights? Given the dominance in web video do you think Adobe has some form of &#8220;moral&#8221; obligation? And why do you think that obligation  exists? I would be interested in your thoughts/speculations on how an eco-system that is free of content rights (or protection of those rights) will play out better in the long run over an eco-system where people pay a good chunk of money to create premium content and then want to monetize the content, either with advertising or by selling the content or subscriptions. And can both eco-systems exist side by side?<br />
Where does the money flow? Is it only tools? Ads? Subscriptions? Pay-per-view? Purchase of the video? What keeps the eco-system humming and pays the electricity bills of the server farms?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/comment-page-1/#comment-397</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/#comment-397</guid>
		<description>Danny,

Hopefully Joerg will show up to clarify, but I assume what he means is there are no built-in restrictions to how often you can view a stream. Also, the encryption can be used for other things besides DRM, if I understand correctly, such as secure streaming.

I don&#039;t think that open source is antithetical to strong encryption. As you say, that isn&#039;t a problem for open source SSL implementations. My understanding is exactly that Adobe isn&#039;t trying to control what you do once you have the stream. They are just preventing other players from reading the encrypted data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danny,</p>
<p>Hopefully Joerg will show up to clarify, but I assume what he means is there are no built-in restrictions to how often you can view a stream. Also, the encryption can be used for other things besides DRM, if I understand correctly, such as secure streaming.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that open source is antithetical to strong encryption. As you say, that isn&#8217;t a problem for open source SSL implementations. My understanding is exactly that Adobe isn&#8217;t trying to control what you do once you have the stream. They are just preventing other players from reading the encrypted data.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/comment-page-1/#comment-396</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:34:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/#comment-396</guid>
		<description>Shawn - oops, fixed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shawn &#8211; oops, fixed.</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn Wilsher</title>
		<link>http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/comment-page-1/#comment-395</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn Wilsher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/#comment-395</guid>
		<description>I think you meant Firefox, not Firebox in the end, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you meant Firefox, not Firebox in the end, right?</p>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/comment-page-1/#comment-394</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 22:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/#comment-394</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure what your commenter meant by &quot;Rights are not really managed by this mechanism except that you lack the right to make copies of the video stream.&quot; -- that&#039;s at the absolute core of what DRM prevents. It&#039;s a clumsy attempt to prevent what it is at the heart of almost every operation on a PC.

To bring the discussion back on topic, how do you envisage Adobe completely open-sourcing their Flash products if that requires giving people the full source of how to decode the DRMed content they&#039;re sending? In a world where it is &quot;just like SSL&quot; that would&#039;t be a problem. In a world where its purpose is to control what you do *after* you receive the stream, that&#039;s going to be much harder - I&#039;d say impossible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure what your commenter meant by &#8220;Rights are not really managed by this mechanism except that you lack the right to make copies of the video stream.&#8221; &#8212; that&#8217;s at the absolute core of what DRM prevents. It&#8217;s a clumsy attempt to prevent what it is at the heart of almost every operation on a PC.</p>
<p>To bring the discussion back on topic, how do you envisage Adobe completely open-sourcing their Flash products if that requires giving people the full source of how to decode the DRMed content they&#8217;re sending? In a world where it is &#8220;just like SSL&#8221; that would&#8217;t be a problem. In a world where its purpose is to control what you do *after* you receive the stream, that&#8217;s going to be much harder &#8211; I&#8217;d say impossible.</p>
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		<title>By: FFD</title>
		<link>http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/comment-page-1/#comment-393</link>
		<dc:creator>FFD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 22:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/03/12/adobes-quest-for-web-domination/#comment-393</guid>
		<description>Extending your product and thus providing more value to your customers is perfectly legitimate. This also holds for Adobe in this case.

From a consumer&#039;s perspective, it looks different. Copy protection will work with everyday users, but talented hacker will break it easily, because if you can see it on your screen, you can copy it. Tools will soon become available to crack it.

The Flash copy protection will reinforce the fundamental misunderstanding of media companies that digital goods can be protected by technical means. Instead of stepping back and implementing new and open strategies of content distribution and monetarization, they will be encouraged to continue their aggressive and in the long term hopeless fight that we have seen to create so much damage in the music industry. Why should we repeat this drama with video?

My guess is that the media industry will pressure video hosters with all means to put copy protection on all videos, as soon as it is technically available. They are unlikely to succeed, but it any case, the Flash copy protection won&#039;t be a step forward for the web itself and the consumers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Extending your product and thus providing more value to your customers is perfectly legitimate. This also holds for Adobe in this case.</p>
<p>From a consumer&#8217;s perspective, it looks different. Copy protection will work with everyday users, but talented hacker will break it easily, because if you can see it on your screen, you can copy it. Tools will soon become available to crack it.</p>
<p>The Flash copy protection will reinforce the fundamental misunderstanding of media companies that digital goods can be protected by technical means. Instead of stepping back and implementing new and open strategies of content distribution and monetarization, they will be encouraged to continue their aggressive and in the long term hopeless fight that we have seen to create so much damage in the music industry. Why should we repeat this drama with video?</p>
<p>My guess is that the media industry will pressure video hosters with all means to put copy protection on all videos, as soon as it is technically available. They are unlikely to succeed, but it any case, the Flash copy protection won&#8217;t be a step forward for the web itself and the consumers.</p>
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